Author Topic: Nature of Shields  (Read 2460 times)

Offline Anew9

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 03:42:26 PM »
You can make this. I played with HPs recently and I made the shields like that:
2000 shield strengh and 180 shield recharge and It was pritty same like in star trek. If I Fire 5-6 Photons at one time, I can penatrate the shield and damage the hull sevearly and It was tough, but If I fire torpedoes slowly, the battle took very long, and It was very cool :thumbsup:

Ya I already did that and the battles felt awesome but everyone here is saying it isn't canon... the battles felt like conserving ammo to maximize volley damage in one blow and to eat away at ships hulls in passes, not just spamming phasers to eat away at shields slowly then hitting them anywhere after shields start failing.
 
I also set ships shield generators and subsystems to low HP so that if I disabled the shields, I could cause ALOT of damage to ships because subsystems got disabled very easily.

Offline JimmyB76

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 05:58:21 PM »
but everyone here is saying it isn't canon...
it's your own install - make it however youd like to your enjoyment; doesnt matter if it is "canon" or not it is how you enjoy your gameplay :)

Offline Anew9

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2010, 08:49:01 PM »
but everyone here is saying it isn't canon...
it's your own install - make it however youd like to your enjoyment; doesnt matter if it is "canon" or not it is how you enjoy your gameplay :)

I guess... but Im a purist and I like to have things as close to the original idea as possible regardless if I think I can improve on it.

Offline Morgan

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2010, 09:41:59 PM »
Most of the people who have been playing this game for a while will tell you that canon hardpoints don't necessarily make for good gameplay. BC's scripting and engine makes canon difficult (and in some cases a liability) to implement in most hardpoints. You can get pretty close with a lot of ships, but the only ship that you can really use a canon hardpoint on is the Defiant, in my experience.

Offline jayce

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 05:24:03 AM »
Whenever I played around with balancing my game, I always tweaked my ship hps so that the shields would recharge enough to replace about 1/6 of damage from the average phaser (2 sec burst firing) per second. I remember setting my game ship's (except Borg) phasers to deal an average of about 250 (or 85 for disruptors) damage per second. The shields could recharge that amount in about 6 seconds. This enabled ships some time to keep the strong shield arcs toward the enemy while recharging weaker shields. The only difference between the shields of different ships is the strength (or max charge), where larger ships would have stronger (or longer lasting) shields than smaller ships. I say this to give you a pretty good idea about trying to balance it out.

Sure you can set your shields to fully recharge in 2 seconds, but then you would have to sacrifice repair rates of every damagable subsystem, depending on how strong your shields will be. Shields that are too strong won't even appear to be weakened as they would recharge almost instantly. Too weak and you might as well not even have shields in the first place with all the shield status flickering you will see as they fail and recharge within those 2 seconds. If you really want to follow through with the 2 second shield recharge, then you should probably start out by having a difficult rate of repair for all subsystems and also set the shield strength (max charge) slightly less that the damage of your average phaser. Example: phaser = 250, shield strength = 240, recharge = 120. This way, a torpedo impact will be the only way to cause any real damage to your ship subsystems while still having a chance to take some damage (however insignificant) from phaser fire. But also be aware that by using this example, taking damage from a volley of torpedos that does an average of about 500 damage on impact will almost certainly cripple your ship in no time. Tweak to where you would see fit.

Offline DKealt

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 09:30:48 AM »
To be fair, I think while BC has its flaws, it's still pretty canon when coming to Trek battles. It just can't simulate everything in a true Universe battle. It's standard knowledge that almost all Trek battles fall along the principle of 'Shields taking damage' Okay so 'Divert all power to forward shields'. Even in films like Nemesis, when there was a break in the battle they started to recharge there shields, but this didn't bring them back to full strength.

If BC allowed you to divert energy into the shields from all non essential systems, like life support, replicators, holodecks etc all those other systems that BC just can't take account for, then things would be more canon. If you could transfer the remaining 32% of Aft shields to the fore, bringing them to full strength, it would be more canon. These things you simply can't do. Even BC's Adv. Power Distribution doesn't take full advantage of this. I could be wrong but I don't think upping shields to 200% makes them recharge 2x faster or make them 2x stronger.

I would also imagine that in Trek battles, the more overall damage the shields would take, the slower the recharge rate. That's just not taken into account in BC either.

Essentially I think my point is. BC is canon, but only to a point where power systems simply aren't as editable to make battles as dramatic as things seen in the series. In Voyager the could come up with any sort of idea to make them last longer in battle. We could assume that they lasted longer against the Tactical Cube because they were prepared for this battle, they had boosted shield strength by re-routing it through the deflector and harmonising them with Borg specific modulations, perhaps they even plugged Neelix directly into the Warp Core to boost efficiency!

All of these (well nearly all) are possible. BC just isn't that advanced

Offline Anew9

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2010, 06:23:25 PM »
To be fair, I think while BC has its flaws, it's still pretty canon when coming to Trek battles. It just can't simulate everything in a true Universe battle. It's standard knowledge that almost all Trek battles fall along the principle of 'Shields taking damage' Okay so 'Divert all power to forward shields'. Even in films like Nemesis, when there was a break in the battle they started to recharge there shields, but this didn't bring them back to full strength.

If BC allowed you to divert energy into the shields from all non essential systems, like life support, replicators, holodecks etc all those other systems that BC just can't take account for, then things would be more canon. If you could transfer the remaining 32% of Aft shields to the fore, bringing them to full strength, it would be more canon. These things you simply can't do. Even BC's Adv. Power Distribution doesn't take full advantage of this. I could be wrong but I don't think upping shields to 200% makes them recharge 2x faster or make them 2x stronger.

I would also imagine that in Trek battles, the more overall damage the shields would take, the slower the recharge rate. That's just not taken into account in BC either.

Essentially I think my point is. BC is canon, but only to a point where power systems simply aren't as editable to make battles as dramatic as things seen in the series. In Voyager the could come up with any sort of idea to make them last longer in battle. We could assume that they lasted longer against the Tactical Cube because they were prepared for this battle, they had boosted shield strength by re-routing it through the deflector and harmonising them with Borg specific modulations, perhaps they even plugged Neelix directly into the Warp Core to boost efficiency!

All of these (well nearly all) are possible. BC just isn't that advanced

Well what I did as a result to this conversation was take the max charge for my shields on an Intrepid to be about 7000 HP (my shield vectors all have different strengths with the foward and afts at 8000 and my ventral at 7000 for the warpcore protection and the rest at 5000). My recharge rates for shields are 200 for the foward and afts, 180 for ventral and 150 for the rest. Type X phasers do 1000 damage and have a max charge of 1 and a recharge rate of 3 so battles are quick and fast paced. Photon torpedoes do 1400 damage and Quantums do 2800. If my Intrepid took a volley of federation torps the shield vector would fail, if it took a multiple phaser blast from a Type VIII phaser it would start failing, but it needs to be pounded continuously.

In my battles with the Nova I gave her type 8 phasers and photon torpedoes, and she causes Hull damage at almost every pass she throws torpedoes at me. If I keep my shields to her phasers she pecks through them in intervals depending how many phasers she shows me at once. My kazon dont do any real damage as they have too weak weapons to penetrate my shields. My intrepids hull is at around 10000 but I gave subsystems a high disabled percentage (to keep with Trek canon that systems are very fragile). But I don't like to have systems destroyed because then I can't repair them if I need to run. If a ships cuts through my shields and hits my shield generator to disable it, Im in BIG trouble since my weapons do ALOT of damage.

It works very well and I think portrays battle pretty well in the Trek universe. But my only problem is balancing ships like the Galaxy, Sovvie and Defiant. My Defiant chews everything up because her pulse phasers and quantum torps are capable of punching through any shield vector my ships have and I dont want to weaken her because she's such a powerhouse in the battles I've seen in DS9. She's so strong that she gives the Galaxy a run for her money... is this accurate?

I know about her fight with the Lakota but the Lakota was a old Excelsior refit with Quantum torpedoes and they barely lost. How can a ship that stomachs orbital weapons not completely outclass a busted down Excelsior that didnt even use her Quantums?

Offline DKealt

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2010, 07:05:34 PM »
It's a problem. While I've been editing and 'trying' to balance the ST and SG ships the problems of Nukes comes up often. If a weapon is very powerful, say like your 2800 Quantums they tend to allow for 'bleeding damage' or 'critical hits'. What this basically means is that depending on how fast the aggressor and defender are travelling and how fast the projectile is, some weapon damage passes through the shields and in rare cases all of it.

In a game where say an Intrepid has a hull strength value of between 15-20,000 and then has ultimate recharge shields. There will be a fierce battle to drain shields and gain a hull hit, but when that does happen, the weapon can unrealistically obliterate a ship.

Also, another thing to consider is 'damage radius'. If on your projectile this is set to a value such as 0.1, on a hull impact the photon will do the named 1400. However, increasing the radius causes more damage, both as a form of damage multiplier and if the impact radius affects other system ie. the shot damaged the hull, warp core, shield generator and sensors, the damage taken is also much greater.

On the Stargate Hiveship, one Nuke currently does 10% hull damage, but if that nuke detonates around the area of the ship where the Power Generators are it can raise up to 25%.

I'm with you on the subsystem damage. On my install my Intrepid has a hull value of 20000. I've balanced the hull strength according to the ship size and then take into consideration the technology level. In a lot of battles ships can take a lot of hull damage, it's when a subsystem is targeted/affected that problems arise. This can be seen in battles such as the first encounter with the Breen in the Dominion War. Once all the ships were disabled, they took a good deal of Torpedo damage before the ship exploded.

The Lakota may have been an old design, but that ship was pretty heavy. I supposed an analogy would be driving around on a push bike with anti tank missiles welded to the sides, at the end of the day it will still blow up tanks. In that battle though the Defiant was still clearly in a league of its own, and they weren't really trying to blow it up. The Defiant has immense fire power, it's not unrealistic in my view to have it level out with a Galaxy at all.

I think though, that the idea and strategy your applying to you install is brilliant, but I don't believe it to be canon. In the Trek battles, ships simply didn't have the ability to recharge their shields to 100% that quickly. Early episodes of Voyger like 'Basics' had hit and run tactics from the Kazon attacking a single shield vector to drain it. The ship couldn't just recharge that area. I think I'm right in also stating that in numerous DS9 episodes such as the finale, once the Dominion broke away from the initial fight and regrouped at Cardassia there were hours of waiting and when the Defiant was giving a tactical update, their shields were still pretty low.

Offline Anew9

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2010, 08:45:55 PM »
Dkealt, I have found the PERFECT balance of shield recharge rate and HP for ships systems and hulls.

I have standardized ALL the ships to have a max recharge of 200 on ONLY front and aft shields, 180 on bottom and 150 on the rest. The only difference between ships are the HP's of shields. My Intrepid has 7000 fore shield HP while the Galaxy has 20000 and BOTH have 200 recharge for the same vector. The BEAUTY of my system is the TACTICAL nature of fights now.

I was an Intrepid against the Galaxy class, a fast ship vs a slower and less maneuverable ship. Instead of attacking the Galaxy head on, I held my fire until I was at the bottom shields (18000HP). I also made ALL ships have the EXACT same HP for subsystems, which is at (normally) 5000 HP which disable at 70% HP. The Galaxy shield generator is located on the deflector so I headed for a weaker vector and focused my weapons on that. The Galaxy has ALOT of phasers on her belly so I took some damage but kept focusing fire on the underside generator. It took a few minutes and my ship took 30% hull damage and lost some weapons and systems but I eventually disabled her generator and kept hitting it till it was destroyed.

Then I started taking out weapons then engines. My Galaxy can take ALOT of punishement hull-wise (40000HP) but I eventually was able to disable the ship system by system then target the core and destroy it. Just to make sure I wasn't unbalancing the game I assumed command of a Galaxy vs an Intrepid and I absolutely ROCKED the Intrepid with a full spread (10 torps from the foward launcher) via a head on attack. I was SUPER happy with the battle. My fights are no longer class vs class but tactic vs tactic.

The highest shield HP I allow on ships is 22000 (Sovvie) but her recharge rate is the same as the other ships plus she has ablative armor (8000HP standard for all armored ships) and strong hull strength (43000HP). :yay:

Again, I base my weapons on fast recharge low max charge and type for damage. For example, type 12 phasers do 1200HP, Type 10 does 1000 etc. I love how my torpedoes are working, they look and feel fantastic in game and I am still tweaking the pulse phasers a bit.

I am very happy with what i have right now, and I'd be more then happy to post some scripts for you guys if you wanna try them out.

I really want to show you guys my photon torpedoes, they are heavily "tweaked" versions of existing weapons released by the modders of BC but I am very proud of what I have worked on. My quantums are still "works in progess" though.

BTW Dkealt, I LOVE your Sovvie photons, they look absolutely perfect in the game and am very happy with them. Your whole torpedo mod is amazing man! 

Offline DKealt

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2010, 08:51:52 AM »
Haha, thanks. I forgot about that release, woah just checked that was in 2005!!! I didn't stop then, I should release a 3.0 version.

That really does sound awesome. The only thing I wish we could add to that type of battle is a more realistic power system. ie. that when your reserve power drains to 0% then the shields and phaser fail completely. I reckon that would be good, but ultimately impossible I'm led to believe.

I've recently been editing all my recharge HP's. I've been working on the tactic inherent in BC, of a battle that will gradually completely drain a shield. What I noticed was that even in KM1.0 all the ship recharge rates were the same?! It took me a while to understand what this means, so like your Intrepid and Galaxy. What that means is that a Galaxy will take twice as long to recharge a vector to 100%. I've kept ships with shield HP's at 6000-9000 at 15, then 10000-14000 at 25 then heavy ships at 15000-20000 at least 30.

I also forgot to mention that I'm pretty fond of the 'Recharge Shields' part of the Adv. Repair Options. it's just like the Equinox episode. You have to drop shields completely but they recharge at a very quick rate. Just wasn't sure if it's part of KM1.0 or not.

Offline Anew9

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Re: Nature of Shields
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2010, 02:40:23 PM »
Actually all my Alpha Quandrant ships have the same recharge values and subsystem HP's, they only differ in hull strength and Shield HP.

I didn't know that KM already did this for their ships... interesting.

And Dkealt, if you DO release a 3.0, would it be possible to maybe edit the flares of the torpedoes to have consistent colors with the torp core so that when it fires the core and flares look continous? Your torpedoes have amazing glow textures but they don't animate when they are fired, maybe doing what I proposed may help with that.

I'll post my photons so you can kind of get a feel for what I am aiming for but since I am unfamiliar with editing TGAs so far, maybe you can improve on my efforts.

 FYI I didn't include SFX and make sure you backup your original tactical textures because I couldnt find the right flare TGA so I just included all of them.